I really think that the point here isn’t about being educated, it’s about being intelligent!

Doesn’t anyone recognize that there’s a difference?!

It’s fine that you might feel "disgusted" that I’m boasting that I’m successful despite the lack of a formal education. But isn’t it equally disgusting to assume that just because someone took the time (and the money) to invest in their education that they’re somehow BETTER than those of us who didn’t?

I don’t know about you, but I know quite a few college graduates that are still living at home with their parents, switching from one job to another. I know plenty of people who spent more of their time in college drinking and partying than they did learning!

I don’t judge people based on whether or not they hold a degree, but whether or not they can carry on an intelligent conversation. I don’t care what school you graduated from, I care about whether people have learned how to think for themselves, how to creatively solve problems, how to challenge their assumptions.

IQ and GPA are two totally different things. Just ask Thomas Edison…

And the fact remains - good copywriting often flies in the faces of everything your English 101 teacher every taught you.

You can either follow the "rules", or you can do what works.

Since none of us are in this thing to win the Pulitzer, I’d opt for what makes money every time!

Just my two cents…

Jennifer

But I agree with you and Ray that’s this is not necessarily a matter of education versus "street smarts." It’s about intention.

A lot of people with creative writing degrees go into copywriting because they want to create. They want to be artists, but they don’t have the guts or the talent to make it as an artist.

So they write copy that doesn’t sell a thing instead. And I guess they also dish out bad advice.

Let me start by saying that I also believe Ms. Julie’s article is wrong. Clearly her points are not only biased, but also unequivocaly wrong.

That being said, I also think that she’s a genius.

I’ll explain:

There is no virtue in being uneducated. Formal education vs. being self-taught, is an unwinable argument. But it’s definately wrong to slight someone for being degreed.

Obtaining a college degree takes a large amount of dedication, and a fair amount of intelligence. (Not saying I’m degreed, because I’m not)

That notwithstanding, Ms. Julie has enough education and enough experience in marketing to know that she’s wrong.

She wrote the article with the intent of stirring up controversy, which she was successful at. (A topic you yourself wrote about in an earlier issue of TTP Daniel)

At the time of my last visit to her blog (also my first) the article in question had 54 comments and counting. So by writing an article on a controversial topic, doing a fair amount of poorly disguised name-dropping, and sparking the ire of one of the biggest names in web copy, she probably managed to pull off an exponential jump in her blog traffic as well as readership participation.

Well done Ms. Julie. Not bad for a day’s work. My hat is off to you.

And Daniel, of course you’re right. You have the check stubs to prove it. But then again we already knew that…

Thanks for letting me speak my piece.

Steve Gunn

Wanted to leave my e-mail address:

moosewinningcopy@verizon.net

SUE

I just starting taking Accelerated Program  for six-Figure Copywriting at the end of March, 2008.  I read and study the Masters around 4 hours a day,try to write 3-to 4 hours a day, and spend at least one hour on potential prospects.  Still working on my new site, and have writing copy on spec.  I love it.  My husband says I zone out when I am working.  Sorry, Daniel, I know this was a shamelessly sneaky way to get your attention, but then again,  I never said I wasn’t sneaky!! 
 Now back to the article and why I initially popped in.  Read the article and was not impressed with all her degrees and formal academic knowledge.  My experience with people like her, can be summed up in one short sentence–"Some people are just too smart to realize how dumb they really are!"  You may quote me.  LOL

Also, in response to comment #11 by Adam–   Can I come along with you and
we’ll each take one side.

Keep up the good work Daniel.  You are a great inspiration. 
Go Majestic Marching Knights  !!!!!!

Sue

This is no reason to make fun of academic degrees or formal education–as some people like to take this type of conversation–it has to do with being flexible.

Knowing the "rules of writing" mean that you can break them.

It disgusts me to see people boast about their abilities to write copy with their minimum education.  That’s great that YOU can, but it’s no evidence of virtue.

One of the greatest copywriters of all time Eugene Schwartz, was very intellectual.  I’m yet to see a copywriting idea that doesn’t germinate from his book "Breakthrough Advertising."

Ray L. Edwards
http://learncopy.com

How come Alan Forrest Smith has one of the more recognised brands (Orange Beetle)?

Could it be because he’s one of the best direct response marketers around?

Wasn’t it Rosser Reeves who said something like "the only creative ad is one that sells"?

Garry

This says it all…

"BA in Creative Writing and Literature"

Save me, please…

LOL

Gman

That being the case, why would she be qualified to critique sales copy in print?

Qualifications are only relevant within certain contexts, and I haven’t seen hers for this yet.  Whether anyone likes Daniel’s copy or not, it works.  That makes him qualified to say something about it.

Oh, it might do Ms. Julie some good to realize that branding (which she says she is after as opposed to direct response) is all fine and dandy, but only with good direct response and follow up can you get sales NOW (direct response) and whatever good branding can do through the follow up.  So, Daniel makes more money up front AND in the long run.

I’ll take being paid now and later as opposed to shelling out all my money now and hoping to get paid later, thank you very much.

- John