John:

Let’s go ahead and get started then. Do you want to give a quick little background on yourself for people to kind of know who you are and what you do?

Caleb:

Yeah, sure. I guess I got started in the copywriting/marketing game about four years ago. Up until then, I was a carpenter working in construction here in Ireland. But it became clear to me that my goals and ambitions in life required more income and financial independence than what carpentry could offer me at the time. So, I started looking into online marketing. The idea of making millions of dollars with nothing more than a laptop and a telephone really got my heart pumping. And before long, I was completely sucked in. I’d spend endless hours studying marketing and coming up with ideas for starting my first business.

At the same time, my brother John, who worked with Dell Computers, was getting ready to leave and start his own business too. John really got me started in all this. He wanted us both to own a company together in the future. So when the time came, we sat down and decided to start an online marketing business, selling information products. By that stage, I already had a growing interest in copywriting through learning of its importance in marketing. And John understood how much of a requirement it was also. But like every other skill out there, we knew it would take time to learn, perfect and master. And being the impatient people we are, we didn’t want to wait. So we planned to look for a mentor who could shorten the learning curve involved.

Previous to this, John had been on Gary’s newsletter for some time. He was so impressed, he told me to sign up. And like everyone on his list, we were amazed by Gary’s ability to write, as well as the experience and knowledge he had in relation to marketing. So, it became a no-brainer for us. We needed Gary as a mentor.

John:

So, how did you go from being a reader of Gary’s newsletter to actually working shoulder-to-shoulder with him for almost two years?

Caleb:

I just emailed him and explained what I wanted to do and asked if he was interested in mentoring me. He wrote back to say he was not interested in mentoring anybody. But, I just kept writing him email after email, day after day. Until finally, Gary called me up.

We spoke for about an hour. But again, he said he was not looking for a student to mentor. However, he was impressed by my enthusiasm and was willing to give me the same deal he gave another guy previously. He said if I sent him a check for $19,000 and arrived in Miami on such a date, he would give me a three week intensive crash-course on killer copywriting. After that, I was out on my own. I had to call him back in a week with my decision. And I did. I told him the check was on the way.

He laughed and told me I had just signed away my life for three of the most intense weeks I was ever going to experience. And he was right. I landed in Miami to began my training. And by the time the three weeks were up, he told me he was really impressed by my determination and ability to write. He asked me to continue working with him and get an apartment in his building. So, I ended up moving into an apartment overhead his. And soon, every plan John and I had for starting an online business went out the window. We ended up starting a direct mail supplement business under Gary’s mentorship, instead.

John:

Now, when you were learning how to write copy from Gary, what kind of stuff did he do to teach you copywriting, because you were learning from scratch, right? How did he go about teaching you one-on-one?

Caleb:

Gary would make me write for hours and hours each day. He would give me tons of magazines and my job was to read all the articles inside and create hundreds of headlines and bullets from them. So basically, I wrote all morning, all evening, and then all night. It was very intense. After a while, he gave me lots of his own ads and letters as well as John Carlton’s to write out freehand. He was a big believer in copying ads out freehand. He believed strongly in the idea that you can program your brain to think and write like a master copywriter by writing out his or her ads freehand. And that made up the biggest part of my initial training.

The next part of my training was all about the strategies behind the letters that worked. Each day, we’d go through one of his ads, or one of John Carlton’s. Gary would explain all the reasons why they worked as well as the strategies behind the headlines, story leads, body copy, closes etc. Then it would be my turn to deconstruct an ad or letter. Gary loved the way he wrote. And he loved the way John wrote. He called it "muscle writing" and told me that’s the style he wanted me to learn. He always believed a well strategized, well written, sales letter was just as effective, or even more so, than a lot of the magalogs and bookalogs out there. And on a number of occasions, I watched him prove his theory right.

After this, it was learn in motion. I’d be given ¼ page newspaper ads, or ½ page ads to write. Or else, he would give me letters he had written the headline and lead for, and it was my job to finish them off. But the rest of my learning came through him critiquing and giving me direction on everything I wrote from there on.

John:

I remember in one of the newsletters, he published a letter you wrote. I think he was saying it was so good that he didn’t think that he, John Carlton or Gary Bencivenga or anyone else could write a better letter. That’s pretty strong praise.

Caleb:

Yeah, I’m sure he was building my confidence at the time, but it was a very nice compliment. At the start of my training, Gary had a unique way of critiquing copy that left me feeling like I just got stabbed in the gut with a rusty blade. But he always did it in a way that left me laughing about it afterwards. I once told him he was the most lovable a**hole I ever met. He said it was the nicest thing anybody ever said to him. He didn’t give out “copy compliments” easily. So when I did get them, they were always well earned. That letter was the first I ever wrote from start to finish and it ran very successfully for about a year. So it was a big boost to my confidence at the time.

John:

What about the marketing lessons you learned working with Gary, besides just copywriting. He was a genius marketer and strategist. What really stands out that he taught you about marketing in general and being an entrepreneur?

Caleb:

You know, he taught me so much, it’s hard to say. That was one of the great things about being with Gary. He never kept anything secret… not even his personal life. Everybody who knew him, knew everything about him. If he had something to say, he’d say it. If he had an idea, everyone would know about it.

I guess one of the things he impressed upon me most in relation to marketing is the importance of a great idea. He often warned me not to spend too much of my time learning how to write eloquently. He told me the money always comes from the ideas you create as a copywriter, and not how you word-wrangle paragraphs. I always try to keep that in my mind each time I write a new ad or sales letter.

Gary was the idea man. He was the guy who always had the killer concept, plan or strategy. And one of the most important lessons I learned from him was how he got these ideas, and where they came from.

On the very first day of my training, we drove down to Barnes & Nobles on Biscayne Boulevard in Miami. Just before we went in, Gary told me when we entered, I was to stop, look around for 5 seconds, and begin telling him everything I saw.

We went in and I told him I saw books, magazines, children running, people drinking coffee etc. Gary told me he saw something completely different. He saw thousands of million dollar ideas calling out for his attention. He’d walk over and pick up a book and say, "Look at this. This is a fantastic premium for a newsletter on investing." Or he’d go over and pick up a magazine, and scan through it until he found the ads. Then he’d turn to me and say, “wanna know how to make the easiest million dollars on earth? Take all the headlines, openings, bullets, and closes from these ads, and make them better. Then run your ad in the same magazine.”

And for about an hour, I followed him around as he picked up books and magazines. He just kept turning the information in them into headlines, bullets, products to sell, and bonus reports that could be sold to generate leads for whatever. The purpose of the exercise was to show me that to be a killer copywriter… an idea man… you have to be open to receiving these ideas at all times. Killer ideas are everywhere. And Gary proved that every day. Anytime we went to the mall, a restaurant, the cinema, or anywhere at all, he was constantly picking up ideas from various things and writing them down on the back of napkins, beer mats, receipts and stuff like that.

Actually, here’s a perfect illustration of his ability to do this. I once drove him to the dentist. One of the assistants there was a very tall, slim and attractive woman. And like a moth to a flame, Gary walked straight over and started talking with her. I remember the conversation clearly. It went exactly like this: Gary said, "Hi, what’s your name? How old are you? You have a really great body. What size waist do you have? How do you stay so slim? Have you ever modeled for a diet ad? Could we get some pictures of you in a swimsuit?"

And amazingly, it turned out that this woman was 57 years old, and had a “Baywatch” body. Amazingly, she actually was a swimsuit model for a number of semi-famous magazines. And within five minutes, Gary had signed her up as a model for a diet ad we never even knew we were writing. The headline for the ad was "57 year old swimsuit model reveals top secret way to lose a lot of weight, extremely fast." That ad later became very successful and is still running to this day.

On the way home in the car, Gary asked, "Did you see that woman?" I replied, "Yeah, I saw her." He said, "Well, how come you didn’t sign her up before I did?" And the reason was simple. I was in the office waiting for Gary to pay the damn bill so we could get out of there. But Gary was at a different place in his mind. Gary was planning his next homerun winner.

And that was a huge lesson for me. If you want to be a copywriter or a marketer or an originator of profitable ideas, you have to immerse your mind in it 24 hours a day, 7 days a week and be constantly on the lookout for your next million-dollar concept, hook, theme or headline. He used to always say that the world is just dying to give you the ideas you’re looking for, as long as your mind is open enough to receive them.

John:

That’s brilliant stuff. That’s fantastic information, and it’s so powerful– how many opportunities pass us by because we’re just not thinking about it?

Caleb:

Exactly. I would have walked past that lady not even thinking about a diet ad and missed out on a very profitable opportunity.

John:

You worked with him for a long time, couple of years, right?

Caleb:

Yeah, almost 2-1/2 years.

John:

So you mentioned that you and your brother ended up starting a supplement company?

Caleb:

Yeah, John and I both started our own company together and later hooked up with another great guy, Alan Riordan. And the three of us have been working together ever since.

John:

How did you go about starting a supplement company? Where did you start from?

Caleb:

Well, we started with a concept for a sales letter and $5,000, which is an extremely small investment when you’re trying to create a multi-million dollar business. But Gary had the idea that anybody could mail a million letters for $1,000. Basically, the strategy revolves around rolling the profit you receive from each mailing back into the business to mail more letters. And like that, we built our company from scratch.

We mailed out a couple thousand letters, and rolled the profit back in each time. We’re now at the stage where we mail about 300,000 pieces per quarter, which isn’t huge when you consider the likes of Agora or Philips. But considering the investment we started with, we’re doing pretty good for a two year old company.

John:

Caleb:

Sure. I was recently introduced to another mailer in my market. This guy owns and operates a much larger company than ours. And through sharing our results over past mailings, it was clear to us both that a promotion I had written was returning a much larger ROI than anything he was mailing. So, he suggested we do a joint-venture. The terms of the deal were simple. We would lease our letter to him for a one-time mailing. He would pay for all expenses involved and handle everything relating to the operations side of things. We agreed to do a mailing of 300,000 pieces. And the profits would be split 50/50 between us both. And so far, everything is working out great.

Now this was quite a revelation for me. You see, if this guy was willing to do a joint-venture, then there must be many more mailers out there willing to do the same. Furthermore, it made me realize how easy it would have been for my partners and I to grow our business if we had only known these opportunities were out there when we started.

I can’t even imagine how further down the line of success my company would be today if I had only reached out to other mailers in our market back when we really needed the investment. This is a fantastic nugget of information for anybody out there starting a business from scratch with little money. If you can get a promotion tested, and it produces a relatively good ROI, then I suggest you immediately contact your list broker and ask him or her to hook you up with other mailers in your market. Just make sure the details of the deal are in writing.

Depending on the market and the size of joint-venture you’re doing, you could earn a lot of money very quickly with very little effort or investment. This is also a great lesson for any copywriters out there. Instead of looking for clients to work for, why not look for business partners to work with – people who will mail your copy for a share of the profits? The trick though is to have your letter tested. An untested letter is just a letter. But a tested letter with proven results becomes a thousand times more valuable. It becomes a business opportunity… a reason for people to invest in you and your company. It’s a valuable asset you own just like a piece of real estate.

John:

Wow, that’s great information. Now, I know you also have a really great way for getting clients too. Can you tell us a little bit about how you do that?

Caleb:

I very rarely work with clients. But recently I had reason to go look for one. A few months back, I wrote a sales letter for a diet supplement. It was part of a campaign that just never ended up running. So, rather than leaving the letter sitting on my hard-drive, I decided to go out and find someone to buy it.

I contacted my list broker and asked him if he knew of anybody looking for a sales letter for the diet market. He said not only did he know of one mailer in need of a letter, he knew of at least three. And I think within three days of contacting him, the letter was sold, I had a new client, and a nice big chunk of change was sitting in my bank account. It couldn’t have been easier.

Again, this is another great lesson for any copywriter out there looking for clients. List brokers are great people to be involved with. They handle the lists of dozens… maybe even hundreds… of mailers throughout a number of markets. And as a result, they get to know their clients businesses quite intimately. So if somebody needs copy, there’s a good chance that the list broker will know about it.

John:

That’s great and I think it’s probably another great thing for business owners to think about, if they’re looking for copywriters, to contact their list broker to find them.

Caleb:

Yeah. Even if you’re not involved with a list broker you can still go to the SRDS book or the SRDS online. Just scan the lists for rent in your chosen market to find out which companies are renting the most. Then contact them by phone and introduce yourself as a writer who specializes in that particular field and find out if they know of any mailer who needs copy. You may be surprised by the response. And if nothing else, just leave your contact info with them to pass out when they hear of anybody looking for a writer.

John:

That’s just phenomenal information, really good stuff. Now, I’m going to switch gears on you a little bit. You talked before about doing something different – everyone’s rushing to go online, but you were sharing some great information about going a little bit old school with newspaper advertising?

Caleb:

Yeah, Gary always encouraged people to test newspapers. He believed the newspapers were wrongly becoming a forgotten marketing tool. Everybody seems to be interested in the Internet nowadays. I know for a fact that a lot of direct mailers have turned their backs on the mail industry to go online. But there’s even fewer now in the newspapers, which is great. It means more of the pie for the people who can make them work.

The great thing about the papers is the discounts you can get when buying space. You can buy excess ad space in the newspapers for as much as 95 percent off. We have a schedule that’s going out right now. I think the lowest discount we’ve gotten – we’re running 12 papers – is 85 percent off. You can buy space for so cheap nowadays. However, when you’re dealing with the newspapers, you’re limited to a very small number of markets you can work with. Niche products do not do well in the papers. It’s got to be very general interest stuff like weight loss, money making, face creams etc. They’re the kind of things that work really well.

Reports are a great way to get started. We’re selling a weight loss report right now for $9.97. We’re hoping to break-even on costs and collect a new customer in the process. The newspapers are a fantastic way to generate leads. If you can get something that works, you’ve got the entire country as your mailing universe. It’s great.

John:

That’s great. You’re getting the names for free, and then you have this list of buyers that you can upsell to, or sell other products to.

Caleb:

Yeah, exactly. We tested an ad a while back. We ran a $10,000 schedule. I think we took in something close to 8,000 leads. Now if you can bring in 8,000 leads per month on a $10,000 investment, and you’ve got a good back-end to support it, you can create a very profitable business that way. It can be hard to take in 8,000 leads for $10,000 in any other media that’s out there. So the newspapers are a great tool for doing that.

Another idea for making money is to create a lead-generating ad for the purpose of selling the leads to other marketers. I believe the most valuable leads are for life insurance. I think, but I’m not completely sure, life insurance leads can be sold now for $25 a piece. And there are guys out there doing that. Poker leads are another very profitable lead. If you can generate a poker lead, I believe it’s up around the $25 mark as well. That’s just another idea you can explore in the newspapers.

John:

Can you use a list broker then to help sell those leads?

Caleb:

Yeah, use your list broker. They set up a lot of deals within the markets that they’re in. They’re good people to get hooked up with. Contact your list broker and find out if they know anybody interested in buying leads.

John:

You’re a perfect example of someone who is more than just a copywriter. The idea behind The Total Package, is that you’re not just a copywriter; you really have to bring a lot to the table regarding marketing strategy and understanding the nuts and bolts of direct marketing.

You’ve got all these great copywriting skills, but you’re far beyond that. You understand the overall big picture of marketing; you understand the nuts and bolts, the strategy, and how to implement all these things. You have stepped out of the role of, "I need to be a copywriter" and really learned the business as a whole. It opens up so many more opportunities.

You’ve got a completely different mindset than folks who are just thinking, "Oh, I need to go find someone who wants me to write them a sales letter."

Caleb:

Well, it really depends on what you want for yourself. I remember Gary saying to me, "If you want to make $100 million, then don’t spend your life trying to become one of the world’s greatest copywriters. Why? Because the world’s greatest copywriters don’t earn anywhere near $100 million." Personally, I love writing copy. It excites me. And I feel the same way about marketing. So I’ve found a happy medium between them both.

John:

Right. And what is it about the two that excites you?

Caleb:

I think it’s the persuasiveness of it all. As copywriters and marketers, we’re really persuaders of people, and motivators of human desire. I love thinking along those lines, it puts a whole new spin on things for me. My brother John has an interesting perspective on this. He believes the entire talent of copywriting is wasted on making sales in the way we do it. And if you really think about it, he’s right. Think of the speech writer for George Bush. He persuaded and motivated an entire nation to action. That’s the kind of immense power we have as human motivators. It’s just we choose to channel that persuasion towards the goal of making a financial purchase. But there’s so much more out there to be achieved with this skill than just making a sale. We have the power to move entire nations to action.

John:

I agree. We tend to always fall back on the idea that we’re ‘salesman in print’, but I think you have a more precise explanation, that we’re persuaders who target our persuasion skills to get sales. That’s a great point.

Caleb:

I was telling Tony Flores recently that some of the best letters Gary ever wrote had nothing to do with purchasing a product. Just look at the ad he wrote to get a girlfriend. Wasn’t that great? He told me the buzz he got from receiving hundreds of letters from stunningly beautiful half-naked women almost begging him to date them was like nothing else on earth. Another example, one that’s on his website, is the letter he wrote to help his friend, Julie Brumwick, who had cancer. Julie was being mistreated in relation to her cancer treatment. He fixed her issue within a couple of days.

John:

That’s awesome stuff. We should probably wrap up here soon. I think we’ve got a mountain of information you gave out here. People are going to love this call. So Caleb, thanks a lot.

Caleb:

Thank you very much John.

John:

Quick question: Are you taking on clients right now?

Caleb:

Well, I usually don’t take on a lot of clients. But, I’m always interested in talking with existing business owners in the health information, and supplement industries. If they have something going on that’s of interest to me, then yes I’m available.

John:

So if anybody is interested in contacting you they can do so by emailing us here at: care@makepeacetotalpackage.com with the subject line: For Caleb O’Dowd and we’ll forward the message right to you.

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